bipolar and stealing

[lovesmydog07]

Hi Folks,

This is my very first post on here as I've just registered my account.
I am currently writing this from a psychiatric hospital where I've been admitted since last week, mostly due to a planned suicide thoughts, intense depression and in a crisis state from my previous behaviours all coming to light... (had to move from one end of the country to another so i could get support from family).

The early diagnosis I've received is Bipolar (likely II but not confirmed). A little about me:

-I am a high achiever, 32 year old woman(masters degree, high performing athlete, volunteer work, travel, etc) and have often had the facade of just that ' she's incredible/perfect/has everything going for her/she's my hero, etc are all things people used to use to describe me.
-Despite all of that, I have spent several years in the midst of various depressions... not being able to move/leave the couch for days, calling in sick because I cant get out of bed/achy,
-this past year I have become more reclusive, avoiding social situations, finding them exhausting, lying to friends about why i cant go out with them
-I've also experienced times when I have been incredibly high in energy, feeling like I can burst out of my own skin, planned huge ideas/events late at night, wrote my Masters thesis in one sitting in 4 days, told people I could be Prime Minister of Canada if I wanted to, been described by friends in these situations as being "child like" and "super giddy", yet I've also been highly irritable and uncontrollably angry in these states.
-off and on for years I have stolen from loved ones/friends. usually just small amounts of cash but it has escalated this year into writing cheques from a loved one's account.

My psychiatrist is fairly sure that, as of now, she knows me to be living with Bipolar yet is also exploring whether this is more of an impulsive control disorder and/or kleptomania.

My question to all of you is whether any of this might sound familiar with the stealing or if you have any insights into the matter? I am new to this community so any suggestions or comments are welcome.

Thank you so much to all of you.

[A.E.V.]

welcome to the forum lovesmydog07! I hope you find the answers you need.

[Determined]

Hi lovesmydog7 and welcome. I haven't experienced everything you have mentioned but can very much relate to the social aspect of it. Very much wanted to avoid people, was unable to work for several months. It hasn't been easy but little by little I have been gaining ground on my depression. All I can do is encourage you to hang on. It does get better. My good friend is bipolar and has described the huge plans and ideas he would have. He is doing fine now and has been for several years.

I hope you get the help you need.

[AJ]

Welcome to the forums Lovesmydog07. I also can relate to the social withdrawal when depressed and the highs that enable you to get alot accomplished in a short amount of time. (I remember writing a 3 hr university exam in 1/2 hour and passed with a very high mark.)

[paul m]

Hello lovesmydog07 and welcome to the forum. I can't say what your proper diagnosis is, but I do know a lot of pople who have stolen while manic.

Stealing, especially frauduantely, is more common than most psychiatrists think. Unfortuantely the bipolar diagnosis often doesn't come until after the person has committed the crimes.

In many cases, the person has been treated for depression with antidpressants and this has caused them to rapid cycle or to continuously achieve a state of hypomania or mania.

Because stealing is so out of character for most people, they are extremely embarrased about it and never bring it up to their psychiatrist. Conversly I've never had a psychiatrist ask me if taking other people's money was one of my symptoms.

Usually the stealing(if caused by bipolar) has a root in one of two things. The manic minds ability to justify just about anything( I need the money so it's justifiable) and/or the manic minds ability to rationalize the persons ability to be able to take the money undected. (I'll be able to return the money and nobody will ever notice).

I'd definitely talk to my psychiatrist more about this. Take Care. paul m

[astronaut]

Welcome to the forum, lovesmydog. I have never heard of stealing as being associated with bipolar disorder and a psychiatrist has never asked me about stealing. I also have been diagnosed with bipolar II; however, I have never stolen anything or had the urge to do so or even considered it. Paul gives a good answer, though, maybe there is a correlation but people are embarrassed to talk about it so pdocs don't pay attention to it as much.

take care
astronaut

[paul m]

Hello Astronaut. You are correct in that there is not a direct correlation to bipolar and stealing. My evidence is anecdotal than scientific. More or less if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck, no matter what the experts may call it. LOL.

I have known many people who stole or committed fraud during a manic episode(s). These people never had this problem before developing bipolar and once the bipolar was brought under control they did not have that problem again. As, stealing and/or fraud is not talked about much once people put it into their past, it often never is considered a bipolar problem. However I could name some surprising people who fit into the "I never did it before or after category" .

One of the weird things is that stealing or fraud often gets put in with impulse control disorders and if mania isn't an impluse control problem I don't know what is.

Anyways, below are some links to some articles about stealing that some may find interesting. Take Care. paul m P.S. Thx Astronaut for posting what you did. Stealing/fraud not being included as a possible symptom of bipolar is one of the things that bugs me and I love to bring out my soap box.

http://www.bphope.com/Item.aspx/169/my-story-canadas-surprising-mr-robinson

http://www.livestrong.com/article/94804-bipolar-disorder-mania-symptoms/

http://www.ehow.com/about_5399562_lying-bipolar-disorder.html

[astronaut]

glad to roll out the red carpet for your soap box, Paul!

[lovesmydog07]

Wow. Thank you to Paul and to Astronaut for your informative responses. The articles you sent were eye-opening..

In the article about Svend Robinson, I felt like I was reading about myself. While I was never an MP, I was often involved in high-profile campaigns, and personally I was often on the cover of newspapers for my athletic achievements.... yet I've stolen cash from friends numerous times and now have lost my entire support network (except for my family, thank god).

Learning as we go.... still in the hospital and will report back more info on what Psychiatrist says.

Thanks so much everyone.

[uni]

Hello lovesmydog. I want to welcome you and say thanks for being so honest in what you've shared. I'm sure you'll find this to be a friendly and caring place.

There isn't too much I can say, as I don't relate to most of what you've been dealing with, but I hope you'll keep posting and letting us know how things go. I wish you the best.

[GraceB]

Welcome to the forums, lovesmydog07,

I know that for me when I started coming to terms with there being a real problem that I needed to deal with (which was about 6 weeks ago), one of the symptoms I experienced was the impulse to steal when I went to the grocery store (although I didn't act on it). I have had the problem in the past too. I don't know if it's directly linked. I'm also not diagnosed.

[lovesmydog07]

hi all,

The past few weeks have been a rollercoaster in so many ways! I'm still in the hospital and will likely be here until January. I've been 'officially' diagnosed with Bipolar II - Rapid Cycling which I now feel relieved about because it's made so much sense for me. I cycle sometimes within hours and it's very clear now for me and family members to see.

It has still been quite challenging - I go through periods of suicidal thoughts ( I overdosed on pills one night that I had a pass to see family for a few hours) and then go through angry, almost violent moods, to grand periods of 'i'm going to do this and this and this and this...... etc. During my angry/irritable/hypomanic times I lash out at family.... it's so embarassing.

Probably the biggest challenge has been adjusting to the right meds. I am a zombie during the day... Right now I am on lemotrigine (25mg 2xday) and recently been put on Ziprasidone (I think 80?), and baclofen (muscle relaxant - I'm getting back spasms, possibly from stress) and zapliclon (sleep).
On monday of this week my Dr (psychiatrist) said she hated seeing me suffer still like this so that's why she wanted to put me on Ziprasidone. However, she initially suggested Lithium and I really balked at that - I was/am a high calibre athlete and throughout this past year with the high depression, moods etc I gained about 30 pounds. The last thing I want is to gain more weight which is what I keep hearing about lithium.

Thank you for all your support thus far. I'm going to do some reading now of the recent posts in other threads... it does help.

[AJ]

Thank you for introducing yourself Lovesmydog07. Welcome to the forums. I hope you feel better soon. I know the hospital is a hard place to be even if it can be necessary. It sounds like you have a lot of med adjustments going on and the rapid cycling can be a challenge. Hang in there!

[paul m]

Hello Lovesmydog07. I'm glad that you are getting the treatment that you need. In regards to weight gain that is a hazard, but part of that hazard comes from the fact that when we feel lousy we tend to do much less. Plus some meds can make us feel hungry.

Good Luck and Take Care. paul m

[astronaut]

Hi lovesmydog,

It sounds like things are really rough for you right now. What kind of sports do you do? I was also a very competitive athlete (I hope to be still one day but I have been held back from training due to serious physical injuries). In regards to weight gain and athletics and meds, this is the way I see it... You can't train well when you are this mentally ill. It is very hard to go to practice or do a workout when you are in the hospital, for instance. It is also hard to care about your sports when you are depressed and to have the energy to train properly. I for one have had a lot of trouble with psycho motor retardation and therefore simply haven't been able to move fast enough to compete.

If lithium actually worked for your mental health, and you could get out of the hospital and start living your life again, then you could have more motivation to do your physical activities. Also, once you are doing full workouts again that will help you maintain a healthy weight even while you are on the drug. Another point is that some people do not gain weight on lithium. It may be a common side effect but that doesn't mean it happens to everyone. And if you were taking lithium and it wasn't helping, you could just come off of it and then lose any weight you might have gained. The thing about lithium (according to a post Paul wrote a while ago) is that compared to other meds, it takes a relatively short time to see if it is going to work or not for the patient.

The thing about weight gain is that you can always lose the weight again and you can be monitored by your doctors in regards to your weight. The doctor cannot make you take the medication if it makes you gain too much weight or too much weight too fast because that is unhealthy too and it is the doctor's job to keep you well. If I remember correctly from an earlier post of yours, you said you were in your early twenties... am I correct? If I am remembering correctly, you are still very young and losing the weight should not be nearly as difficult as it would be if you were twenty years older. Youth, athleticism and health-awareness are on your side.

All that being said, there are some drugs with profiles that don't have weight gain as a common side effect. Your psychiatrist (pdoc) should probably know which ones those are. I have tried a couple of them and found them both ineffective for treating my bipolar II but that means nothing because they have worked wonders for other people. I am not a rapid cycler though so they might not be appropriate to your particular and current state.

Good luck with the treatment and learning more about your diagnosis,
astronaut