No, I'm not bipolar...

[Atlantis]

For me, and i can only speak for me personally the clarity of thought that comes with hypomania is great and I accommplish huge amounts at work and home while I am hypomanic BUT the end result is the hypomania can quickly spiral out of control (mania) and my mind turns against me, my thoughts becomes delusional.

The thought starts out sane and rational, just like any other thought I would have but it escalates out of control, i can't let it go, my mind is racing, the ideas are coming to fast, my mind can't process them, I try to write them down so i don't forget them, all of the ideas seem good, I am solving all my problems, atleast I think i am. What I am really thinking and writing is making no sense at all, it is only making sense to my sick mind.

I can not possibly describe the horror of a major episode of bipolar in one post but for me it feels like I lost my mind completely, my mind betrayed me, I have no control over my mind, my mind and me are separate entities, I feel alone and so scared, scared like a child would be, i do not feel safe, and these feelings last for months after the episode...

I also have a daughter, she is 11, I worry she might have issues with mood disorders because I have Bipolar

[sapphire921]

I've been struggling with my mental health for a long long time. I had my first real break down when I was in my early 20's. I was 23 I think. Hospitalized for a week with major depressive disorder or so they thought. During that stay, I have vague memories of a few moments here and there but mostly the entire chunk of time is a blank to me. I saw a psychiatrist at the time who diagnosed me and said it was reactive to a life event. I struggled along with highs and lows and started to actually see a psychiatrist for my depression. He went along with the original diagnosis from the emergency hospitalization and one time brief session with the on staff psychiatrist. About two years after the first break I had a second one that sent me to hospital on suicide watch...they still believed I had major depressive disorder. My shrink and I worked hard on dealing with the life events behind my depression but I continued to struggle with an emotional roller coaster ride from hell. The anti depressants would make me go high and for a while I would do okay but out of nowhere I would go hypomanic. So I would feel invincible and stop taking the meds and then before long I would be in the pits of hell again. My shrink would convince me to go back on my anti depressants and over time I would cycle again...ok for a while...then hypomanic...and off the meds again. Eventually he realized that I was bipolar. Because my shrink only ever saw me when I was seeking help for the depressive side he didn't know I was having the highs. When I went to his office slightly delusional talking up a senseless storm of ideas and running on and on...he suddenly realized I was bipolar. I was 37 at the time! Not sure why he didn't find a clue earlier when I have a long family history of bipolar. My grandmother, my uncle, several cousins...it runs rampant in my DNA...blah! The many years of mis diagnosis had me struggling along...on and off of meds, using pot to escape, destroying relationships, failed marriage, lost jobs, huge debts!!!

anyhow...my point in all of this is I turn 40 this year and we've still not got it right.

[A.E.V.]

same thing for me Sapphire921... your post struck a chord in me.
after I had my son at 23, I was told if I was looking at the possibility of antidepressants. when you're young and ill informed, suddenly you feel top of the world to avoid the meds!
thankfully I've never been hospitalized, but at 35 they thought it was major depression, only to find out I had bipolar at 38. so I went from 23 til 35 with no diagnosis at all, and feeling like I was losing my mind most of the time.

a wise person on this site keeps saying that things will get better... so I try to see that there IS a light at the end of the tunnel.

hang in there,

Anne.

[paul m]

Hello sapphire921 and welcome. Somehow I missed saying hello to you. on average people with bipolar are misdiagnosed for 6-8 yrs. In my case part of the reason was dumbness by docs, stupidty by me(less than truthfull with the doc at times) and the generally our health system does a lousy job of looking for a second problem once an initial major illness is diagnosed.

These facts are unfortunate as the longer the illness is allowed to run free the harder it is to rein in. Plus many of us committed many horrors while on manic highs caused by antidepressants that were improperly prescribed. Rather they were properly prescribed, the patient reactions to them weren't properly monitored.

Hello Anne. Glad to hear from you, you are correct. It is possible to get better, sometimes it does take a bit longer than we would like though. And it's damn hard work. Take Care. paul m P.S. How is your son making out these days?

Hello schmadrian. In regards to yoga etc. Yoga is basically a type of CBT. The best type of treatment is one that may help, but definitely will cause no harm, Yoga falls into this category. Many have been helped by it.Meditation, journalling, writing ,poetry art and others all have helped people, probably because they help one to focus their thoughts. Once again, there are no universal specifics for bipolar, all one can do is try

In regards can we see what we are doing is wrong. We can, not at the time, but eventually, the thought of the terrible things I did while manic usually drove me into a deep depression. The problem we have when manic is we assume that we are right in our actions. A person wih any major disorder like bipolar is usually pretty confused at times. Unfortunately as these illnesses develop over a very long period it is hard for us to see our thoughts as abnormal. Just as a privledged child will have a mistaken view on his worth to the world because he has always been able to think that his privledge makes him better etc, a person with bipolar has extreme difficulty seperating normal thought patterns for abnormal ones.

My life was given back to me, but to get it back I had to endure not trusting my own mind and that's really horrible, I've tried over 30 different meds in over 80 combinations, some of those meds made my mind worse(much worse) , some litterally tried to kill me with bad reactions(requirng medical treatment to correct) and I've not even began on the ever day side effects that I live with, nor the potential for a shortened life expectancey that those meds may cause. So it's not just the desire to get better that we must have, it's the desire to get better against some pretty big obsticales.

It's worth it, I enjoy my life now, but it can be a real tough battle. For a youngster, even tougher, due to the at least temporay lose of his dreams. Take Care. paul m

[schmadrian]

Some advice, please...

My friend and her son have been on holiday. It's been mostly 'OK'. He's been 'better' on his new meds level, happy with it, they've been talking, he's been pretty stable...

...only yesterday, a few days left in the vacation, he's been talking about:

-Getting off his meds once they're back home, and
-Smoking pot, and
-Going out of state with 'George', someone who I've come to think of as a crap friend, a user, a drug abuser...someone who's only around this son because the son has the means to 'do stuff' and this idjit doesn't.

My reaction to this stuff is immediate, mostly because I've watched her life for the past three and a half years, before the son had bipolar, back when he 'had' just immaturity, disrespect...and a woeful lack of understanding that he was not an 'equal' in his mother's house. So; here's my reaction, and I'd like your input as to how far off-base I am...because she is now DREADING going back.

-He either stays on his meds (finding better ones, better levels, etc) or he's out of the house. She has a history of being in co-dependent relationships, situations of enabling, and this clearly falls under these banners. He's planning on trying college again this fall...light course load...but I saw what happened the first time he was living according to his own edicts, and it was messy. And sad.

-Absolutely no pot in the house. Period.

-'George' is verboten on the property.


The son has lost a lot of his friends. And this 'George' is bad news. Clearly friendship...and 'loneliness'...is a prime factor in his coping.

Anyway, whatever you have to offer in terms of observational advice would be greatly appreciated, even if you feel I'm wrong, wrong, wrong.

Thanks in advance.

[schmadrian]

Some advice, please...Part Two

The son lives at home.

He can't be 'made' to do anything.

But there have to be 'limits'. There have to be 'boundaries'.

If my friend can't deal, can't handle things, can't manage...then everything sinks. (She is an independent businessperson. So SHE is her boss.)

How do you establish limits, when it's a 20 year old living at home, almost entirely supported by his mother?

In the end, if this goes south, if he goes off his meds, is absolutely not cooperating, insists he has things his way...and this destroys her, destroys her business, yadda, yadda, yadda...

: (

Clearly, this area is one of my concerns, and it's most certainly one of hers, one of her greatest fears.

I've suggested to her that she needs to make a priority of bolstering herself, get some input, develop some skills through counselling...and not be 'reactive' so much as 'active', even if she can't control how he addresses things. Maybe *especially* because she can't.

Thoughts?

[paul m]

Hello schmadrian. The easiest way to establish limits with someone living wth bipolar is to cut off all sources of funding. Drugs aren't cheap, if he doesn't work, either she is providing the money or he is dealing. His deadbeat friends will drop him in a hurry if he has no money.

No allowance, if collecting welfare raise his room and board to whatever welfare pays. Reinstate money if he follows certain reasonable norms.

Then that you pray like hell that your son doesn't become a homeless person or a full time drug dealer to support himself or commit suicide. To be honest I won't care to bet which way it will go.

It's a tough decision, but the number 1 rule is you can't help someone else if you can't help yourself. If his mom losses everything, she cannot help him

#2) This isn't an illness where a person very often spontaneously gets better. They may have good periods , but few if any get better without professionial help and personal dedication.

#3) We must be very carefull that we don't permanently alienate the person with arbitary rules. My values are not my sons values.

We are not talking a tv reality show here with some great intervention. We are talking about possible suicide or life long alienation of a child from a son or other possible disastorous consequences.

If you were talking about a normal young man, your ideas might work, but a mental illness is called a mental illness because it is that. Our brains don't always function the way others do.

BTW. You mention in the 3.5 yrs before he had bipolar. As he is only 20, the chances are great that he has been developing bipolar since a very early age. Bipolar may strike suddenly, but most people will tell you that their first minor symptoms appeared yrs before it became a major issue.

Also, in very young people bipolar most often expresses itself as rages, irritation and frustration. This is because a childs brain is just not a smaller and lighter model of an adults brain. It's still developing. The stresses that developing bipolar puts on a developing brain are unknown. But it is known that the unfortunate youth that get bipolar react much differently than adults. Please read the following info http://bipolar.about.com/cs/kids_diag/a/red_flags4.htm . It may help explain better than I. Take Care, paul m

[schmadrian]

Paul:

Thanks!

I'm curious; you reference your son; does he live with you? If so, is he dependent?

[schmadrian]

While I'm thinking of it...

This situation has some things going for it, while having other things not going for it.

She is his safety net.

On the other hand, she's his safety net.

So on the one hand, he's of legal age, so she can't 'force' him to do anything (other than abide by her house rules...but only if she's willing to enforce the punishment...and how does that work with someone with bipolar?)

On the other hand... This could go on forever?

Which makes me ask: What if she weren't around? How does someone in his shoes (assuming he was going to college, but not entirely self-supporting) deal with this battle? (I mean, with the disorder.) If you have diabetes, you get your treatments. You line everything up and do what you have to do. But if you have bipolar...and you're fighting to stay afloat AND you're fighting the notion of meds...

I believe that she needs to have a better understanding of how (even though all patients are different, and all families are different) how in a general sense, someone in his shoes (independent or not), finds their path. Or, what that path tends to look like. (Yes, again; I understand that everyone is different, but there have to be some grouped commonalities...there are in all situations; alcoholism, searching for a job, trying to get coupled, establishing a career...) So that not everything is total and utter mystery.

[Woody]

Hello Schmadrian,

If drugs are that much of a problem, I would suggest that your friend consider going to either Nar-Anon or Al-Anon meeting. Take some time and not make rush decisions. They usually recommend attending meting for at least 6 months before making any major decision.

Before you can address what ever mood disorder her son has, the drug addiction need to be address. Most Pdoc will not treat a patient if they know he/she is using drugs. This is a double edge sword as the son will probably say that he is using the drugs because of the mood disorder. But in the end, the drugs need to be addressed before anything else.

[schmadrian]

Woody:

I'm assuming you're saying that any amount of drug use is a barrier to meds working?

One thing she was told when she went to a group meeting of parents of kids with bipolar is that some kids believe fervently that they can 'control' things with small amounts of pot. Some are successful...most are not.

Any idea what the 'success rate' is?

[Atlantis]

Hi, I found this question on the net and even though the meds your friends son are taking may be different, there still might be some info in the anwer that may be useful to you. I hope some of it is helpful

Question: I am 25 years old and was diagnosed 3 years ago with bipolar disorder. I take medications: Neurontin 100 mg and Seroquel 100 mg every day at bedtime. I still recreationally use marijuana and drink alcohol. I have spoken to my psychiatrist about this matter but he just says not to use such drugs. I was hoping that you would be able to explain to me exactly what are the effects of such usage on the body and brain regarding my diagnosis and medications?

Answer: You are raising an important question, but one that isn't easy to answer scientifically--the kind of experiments that would be necessary to measure such effects on the brain have not been done, to my knowledge. But let's start with some basic facts: first of all, there is good evidence that the use of alcohol, marijuana, and related drugs often worsens the outcome in bipolar disorder.

For example, substance abuse may lead to mixed bipolar states (in which features of both mania and depression are present), and contributes to poor outcome in mania [Goldberg et al, J Clin Psychiatry. 1999 Nov;60(11):733-40). There is also some evidence that marijuana use can lead to, or worsen, psychotic states, in some vulnerable individuals. Furthermore, alcohol can cloud the patient's judgment, leading either to impulsive actions (driving while intoxicated, violent behavior) or failure to take appropriate medications.

While the precise effects of alcohol and marijuana on the brain are not known, and have not been carefully studied in patients taking the medications you mention, I would have several concerns. First, the combination of alcohol or marijuana and Neurontin or Seroquel could cause excessive drowsiness, impair coordination, and reduce reaction time--even after many hours. This could put you at risk if you were driving or performing some work-related task. Secondly, it's possible that marijuana or alcohol could interfere with the therapeutic effects of Neurontin, Seroquel, or both, leading to a mood swing (mania or depression). Third, alcohol can interfere with sleep, which, in turn, can lead to a switch into mania.

I think it's important that you talk to your doctor about what is behind the recreational use you make of these agents. Some patients will use alcohol or marijuana because they have not gotten complete relief from their prescribed medications, and are self-medicating their residual mood symptoms with these drugs. Other patients will use alcohol or street drugs because they are trying to counteract side effects of their prescribed medications, or simply because they want to feel normal. Some patients with bipolar disorder have a hard time accepting that they have a serious illness, and that alcohol and street drugs can destabilize their mood.

I would also encourage you to speak with your local chapter of the National Depressive and Manic Depressive Association (NDMDA; call 800-826-3632). I think you will find that many folks with bipolar disorder struggle with these same questions, and can give you the benefit of their experience. Finally, if you find that you can't stop yourself from using alcohol or marijuana, I would encourage you to joint a 12-step program such as Alcoholics Anonymous. If that type of program doesn't appeal to you, you can discuss alternatives with your doctor. Good luck with your program!

[paul m]

Hello schmadrian. You ask about what % of pot smokers get better, Even if 90% get better, 10% don't. Anyone who uses pot and doesn't get better should simply stop using it for 6 mths and see if they get worse. If they can't stop, their addicted, if they get worse perhaps it is helping(I wouldn't bet on them getting worse).

You mention people with diabetes do certain things to get better. Aside from the fact that diabetes is an entirely different illness, lots of people with diabetes don't do what it takes to get better. Many die or suffer ill health rather than give up drinking(booze is full of sugar) or change their life style.

You ask how he would go to school if his mother didn't support him.Didn't you tell us that he dropped out even though his mother was supporting him. I would expect he would do the same thing if she didn't support him.

You asked about the common characteristics of people with bipolar. In regards to future, job hunting, career paths etc, that is as varied as a rainbow. Some people recover fully, some are highly successful. over 60% have problems with substance abuse at some time during their life, over 80% have a co-occuring illness(anxiety etc) , 1 out of every 7 people with bipolar will (not try but will) commit suicide and the average life expectancy is over 10 years less than the average life expectancy. Most get married or have a common law spouse, the average divorce rate in Cda is over 50% for all people and not much higher for people with bipolar.

In regards to my son he lives independantly from us and is employed F.T. and appears to be enjoying his life. Take Care. paul m

[schmadrian]

Thank you Paul and Atlantis. Your kindness and patience is greatly appreciated.

I think I need to do more digging in regards to the stalemate-type situation where the son refuses to stay on meds and continues to smoke pot...and even though the situation is untenable for her, my friend can't bring herself to show him the door. (I'm thinking of course of the notion of there hypothetically being more children involved; at what point do you say 'enough is enough' when a family's structure is at stake?)

Again, thanks.

[Atlantis]

You're welcome, i learned something from that question too...
I didn't know that substance abuse lead to mixed bipolar states.
So, it is good to talk about all of these things and there will be many guests reading these threads that will also benefit from the posts shared in this thread.
There are many friends out there, just like you, struggling to help a loved one, anyway they can